Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
22
   |
Posted - 2014.10.17 04:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
As someone who has used the AmLogi quite a bit, and who has some opinions and ideas on fixing logis, this is my take:
I'm moderately okay with making the CalLogi the shield equivalent of the Amarr. However, I do think it would be better to simply give the CalLogi 3/3/4 equipment slots for STD/ADV/PRO, and then equalize the slots with the CalSalt.
Joel II X wrote:GALLENTE has 5 Lows and 3 Highs at Proto. 4 equipments.
I only quote this because I actually didn't know this for one, and because it- and the MinLogi layout of 4/4/4 at proto, very strongly indicate something that is VERY interesting:
Losing a sidearm is worth a whopping three (3!) equipment slots. Not two, but three. That's interesting, don't you think? /tinfoil hat
You see, compared to the Assaults (especially post Hotfix Charlie), (most) Logis sacrifice three things:
1. Base health
2. Base speed&stamina
3. A sidearm
And then you get in return:
1. 2-3 equipment slots
2. slightly better scan precision
Seems a tad biased against the logi, doesn't it? Now, let me be clear; in no way do I think the Assaults should be nerfed- the Hotfix Charlie buff that assault suits received was sorely needed, but it's also no excuse to leave logis in their current plight.
So, what should a player see when looking at the pros/cons between assaults and logis? Well, IMO, it should be thusly:
Assaults should have:
1. more health
2. more stamina
3. a sidearm*
4. bonuses that reduce weapon fitting requirements and improve certain weapons
Logis should have:
1. more equipment (obviously)
2. bonuses that reduce equipment fitting requirements and improve most equipments (ref. Cross Atu' Logi thread)
3. better scan range
4. less stamina
And both have:
1. the same speed
2. the same scan profile
3. a light weapon slot**
4. the same slot count & similar fitting reserves
So, what does this do? Well, it's quite simple really: generally speaking, logis have slightly better EWAR (due to scan range advantages) and more equipment- but assaults can run for longer, have superior weapons and have superior tank.
If you're wondering why assaults and logis should have the same movement speed- but logis should have less stamina- it's for two reasons:
1. An Amarr Scout user will tell you that all the stamina in the world isn't very useful- you might get their without having to wait for stamina to regen, but EVERY. OTHER. PERSON. will get their first. I'd rather have more speed and less stamina than a buttload of stamina and the worst speed.
2. Building off of #1, most logis seem to prefer movement speed to stamina; the reason being that assaults complain that logis can't support them... but they don't realize that the reason a logi can't support a group of assaults is because the logi is actually incapable of keeping up with their speed.
*IMO, the AmLogi should keep its sidearm, and simply trading an equipment slot compared to other Logis- it's still sacrificing a ton of base HP, after all, when compared to its AmSalt brother.
**I'm not including the grenade slot here because I think the non-Amarr Logis (since AmLogi keeps the sidearm) should have two grenade slots; however, this requires the addition of more utility grenades, and it would be a requirement for each grenade slot to be filled with a different type of grenade, to prevent Logis from carrying 4 Core Locus. |
Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
22
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 06:26:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'm going to take this a little at a time. But first, I really need to say this: PLEASE exercise a basic understanding of the English language. Yes, yes, this is the *Internet*, and you don't need to do that if you don't want to... but it really helps other people actually understand what you're saying. It also conveys a sense that you want other people to understand what you're saying, and so displays some courtesy.
On to business:
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:well i get what your tryign to say but the cal logi is the skirmish version of the amarr logi so why shouldnt it have a sidearm? as for amarr logi suits i got an amarr logi alt at like 6mill sp.. but tbh if caldari cannot get a sidearm i would propose removing sidearm from amarr logi and just giving cal/amarr 3 equip at standard 3 at advanced and 4 at pro cause why should they take an equipment slot nerf just for a sidearm? or in caldari case.. they get F'd in the A twice cause equip slot nerf and no sidearm at std level scout is better then std logi
and logi need more ehp.. so we can sacrifice slots for some ewar or kinkats or even stam/regen mods which we need.
The CalLogi is not the skirmish version of the AmLogi. There is no evidence to support this assertion whatsoever. Consider the suit descriptions; while somewhat inaccurate for the current GalLogi bonus, they convey quite nicely a sense of purpose for each Logi suit. In the case of the CalLogi, it's noted to be a very bare-essentials, minimal functionality, stripped-down triage platform.
In contrast, AmLogi is described as being a combatant/support platform hybrid- it even says something to the effect of "equally capable at killing and healing". I'd say that the description of the CalLogi as being a stripped down triage platform really don't favor it being able to carry a sidearm instead of 4 equipment.
Further, if you had read a little bit better, than you'd have noticed this (bolded text for emphasis):
Victor Moody Stahl wrote:I'm moderately okay with making the CalLogi the shield equivalent of the Amarr. However, I do think it would be better to simply give the CalLogi 3/3/4 equipment slots for STD/ADV/PRO, and then equalize the slots with the CalSalt.
So you can see that I actually agree that yes, CalLogi is indeed getting the short (pointy, crap-covered) end of the stick. And I think that the simple way to fix that particular issue is to simply give the CalLogi a 3/3/4 equipment layout.
Before I cover the tradeoffs between logis and assaults I want to touch on this:
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:but tbh if caldari cannot get a sidearm i would propose removing sidearm from amarr logi and just giving cal/amarr 3 equip at standard 3 at advanced and 4 at pro cause why should they take an equipment slot nerf just for a sidearm?
There would- and was- an enormous uproar about removing the AmLogis sidearm. Quite frankly, the AmLogi should keep its sidearm to the detriment of an equipment slot. I know that I, and many other AmLogis, would NOT be happy about losing that sidearm- it's one of the biggest reasons that compelled me to spec into AmLogi quite heavily (currently L4 on one character, L3 on another). In another thread, I covered some of the more unique functions the AmLogi can perform that the other Logis are unable to- at least not in an ideal or even desirable manner- do in another thread; I'll dig up the link later.
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:and logi need more ehp.. so we can sacrifice slots for some ewar or kinkats or even stam/regen mods which we need.
The general consensus of the Logis in the CPM Logi thread started by Cross Atu tends to be that Logis need more base speed- especially movement and ideally sprint as well- than they need more EHP. The premise, AFAIK, is that Logis need to be able to keep up with a group of assaults (who will otherwise complain about Logis not supporting them because 90% of assault players happen to be idiots) more than they need to be able to tank enormous amounts of incoming fire.
Tanking incoming fire is the job of other people. That's not to say logis must be flimsy paperweights who die to a stiff breeze, but that the real buff to survivability should come from adjustments to base slots, mobility, and EWAR- all of which play, quite frankly, an even greater role in a logi's ability to not die than just raw HP.
The simplest, most elegant- and IMO best- solution is to simply equalize slots and speed between assaults and logis. Adjust fittings to compensate (a little more grid for the incredibly grid-starved AmLogi, a little more CPU for the similarly-starved CalLogi), and look at that- Logis that can move around, can tank up a bit, and maybe even fit some EWAR.
Apothecary Za'ki wrote:ok then.. so even tho caldari logi has no sidearm it only gets 2 equip at standard.. hell even scout does it better at that equipment level.. and amarr gets a sidearm and 2 slots.. so why dont re remove sidearm from amarr and give cal and amarr more equip slots to mirror gal and minmatar?
I don't think you understood me very well- I absolutely believe the CalLogi should have 3/3/4 equipment slots. However, the AmLogi is something that is... difficult, to balance properly at standard, IMO. It's mostly because the tradeoff other Logi suits make for gaining 3/3/4 equipment is a loss of speed (which sucks), loss of stamina (who cares), loss of base EHP (which can be worked around), and loss of a sidearm (again, it can be worked around).
But the Amarr just loses some EHP, speed, and stamina. I'm not really sure how to go about balancing the AmLogi at standard level- particularly when considering cross-class balance with scouts and assaults. I'll leave the fine details to more informed individuals, like Cross Atu and John Demonsbane. |